A Matter of Utmost Importance

[Siverous de'Medici]

I have been going about a matter of utmost importance to the Church in the wrong manner. I would implore the Council to allow me to take a more direct approach so that this issue may be resolved.

The Council of Bishops mirrors the House of Lords. It meets and decides on legislation which will effect the entirety of the Church.

The Archbishop is the head of the Council in the same way the King is the head of the House of Lords. It is the responsibility of the Archbishop to enforce the decisions of the Council, as it is the King's responsibility to enforce the decisions of the House of Lords. It is also the responsibility of the Archbishop to provide the Church with direction when needed, as it is the King's responsibility to provide the Kingdom with direction.

There are differences, for example, the Archbishop does get a vote, and does not have the power of veto. He can, however, make a decision without consulting the Bishops...the same way the King can make a Royal Decree in time of need, when all of the Bishops/Lords would probably be of one mind on the matter anyway or when he is acting in the best interest of the Kingdom (say he has sensitive information that the other Bishops do not), and where time is of the essence.

As the head of the Church, the supreme governor, the King does have the power to veto a decision of the Council/Archbishop because he needs to keep the big picture in mind, and if the Council and Archbishop "screw up," he needs to be able to step in and say, "that's just an awful idea." He also picks the Archbishop because he needs to be able to count on someone to make those important and speedy decisions without consulting the Council, or him.

Now, the Hundred offered this Rule as the guidelines for the Virtuous Hundred. The Council altered it, and sent it back down for the Hundred to say, "ok we agree to play by these rules, and in return we get the benefits of belonging to the Church." This functions as a sort of contract...the same way the Carta Solis is a contract between the King and the Lords. If one of them broke the Carta Solis, even if it were Wessex, the Royal Sheriffs would be called in.

Our equal to Royal Sheriffs would be Inquisitors, which we don't have. Breaking a secular law is "illegal," whereas breaking a Divine law is heresy. The Carta Solis is the Supreme Law of the Kingdom, the Constitution of the United States is the Supreme Law of the U.S., The Constituion of the Republic of the Silver Sun is the Supreme Law of Aquileia. The Rule of the Virtuous Hundred is the Supreme Law of the Order, the Virtuous Hundred. By its nature, breaking the Supreme Law of the Virtuous Hundred is heresy.

Once Father Aethliric said he had no intention of obeying the Supreme Law of his Order, I recognized it as heresy immediately.

In my arrogance, I sought out Cynewulf, believing he would side with the decision of the Ecumenical Council, because it's his job to enforce their decisions. Even when the King told me to bring this in front of the Bishops, I confidently praddled on...certain that Cynewulf would see the logic in my arguments. I was mistaken.

Now we are faced with an incident which may result in the Council no longer being able to set, and enforce its own standards. Where actual heretics are in-charge of Military Orders.

Consider the following:
If an opinion or doctrine in philosophy, politics, science, art, etc., is at variance with those generally accepted as authoritative then it is heresy.

If a person expresses or acts on opinions considered to be heresy, then he or she is a heretic.

If The Rule of the Virtuous Hundred is the authoritative doctrine on how the members of the Order of the Virtuous Hundred are to live their lives, then for a member of the Virtuous Hundred to hold an opinion in contrast to their Rule makes them a heretic.

If Father Aethlric expresses the opinion that his members should not be living a life by the Rule of their Order, then he is a heretic.
----
Therefore, Father Aethlric is a heretic.

Even if you do believe in God, he himself can not change the Rules of Logic, just as he can't change the laws of mathematics.

Even if my character is killed off, the Hundred kills 1 billion players, or they donate an endless supply of gold - it will not change the fact that an Order in the Church is run by a heretic. An actual heretic, in the same way a member of the Kingdom might be an outlaw, so practical RP-wise. I don't believe he knows it, and I think I haven't helped because what I have been saying seems like RP fluff. That's why I've decided to change my approach a bit.

All he has to do to be forgiven is say, "I'm sorry, I didn't know," and renogiate his Order's "contract."

I should've just said all of this from the beginning, and I'm sorry for dragging all of this out with what seems like nonsense. I would implore the Council to discuss this matter so that a solution can be reached.

[Siverous de'Medici]

The thread in which this is brought up is here: http://www.duchyofwessex.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5931&page=4

[Aethelric Brandt]

I rely on the judgment of someone qualified to declare my actions as heresy. If such a thing is done, be assured that I will throw in penance at their feet.

[Valens Bellator]

Well Sivvy is right. I'd suggest we simply alter the rule to be a little more realisitic. Some of the things that were written in are just silly and unable to be replicated in game.

Besides, trial by combat was a method that was generally only used when there were no witnesses of the conflict. It also sets a bad precedent, considering now when someone mentions that others are defying the council's ruling, they might be made to participate in this "judicial combat" and later declared a heretic for pointing out the heresy of others. It sounds like a bad idea all around!

[Aethelric Brandt]

I believe the main cause for the trial by arms was the pretty intense insults leveled at the Hundred and myself.

And, yes, Sivvy is clearly bored. Get an account so we can duel already.

[Aethelric Brandt]

Four minute timer, dammit.

As for the matter at hand: this whole issue originally derived from some OOC comments I made regarding the viability of RP in a system like Darkfall's (namely, that the shitty chat and emote sytem makes it masturbatory at best). Sivvy took this into an IC polemic for reasons unbeknownst to me. I cannot tell whether he is actually bored, truly, or whether he cannot separate his real life religion and beliefs from these RP matters.

If we are talking about "rule of Law", here, where is my Charter? I never saw it, and apparently KillerSOS deleted from the private forum where it was posted. This seems like a much greater issue than the Hundred's public chat spam or the lack thereof.

[Siverous de'Medici]

Four minute timer, dammit.

As for the matter at hand: this whole issue originally derived from some OOC comments I made regarding the viability of RP in a system like Darkfall's (namely, that the shitty chat and emote sytem makes it masturbatory at best). Sivvy took this into an IC polemic for reasons unbeknownst to me. I cannot tell whether he is actually bored, truly, or whether he cannot separate his real life religion and beliefs from these RP matters.

If we are talking about "rule of Law", here, where is my Charter? I never saw it, and apparently KillerSOS deleted from the private forum where it was posted. This seems like a much greater issue than the Hundred's public chat spam or the lack thereof.

You said you have no intention of obeying your Rule, and you even made it seem that you never had any intention of obeying it. As I've shown, in practical RP terms, that means you're a heretic. Just as Nocturne is a "wolf's head."

I'm sorry for the RP tirade I went on, in hindsight, I should've just written this up in the first place.

I had to write my own charter...did you write up yours and submit it for approval?

[Baenor]

If the question is still of whether Aethelric is a heretic, I believe i have to side with Sivvy on the matter. That is, if Aethelric is not upholding, or enforcing his order's rule.

From princeton's online dictionary the definition(s) of heretic are as follows:
# heretic - a person who holds religious beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church
# heretic - a person who holds unorthodox opinions in any field (not merely religion)

Where roman catholic church could obviously be replaced with the Church of Auros. I think, however, Aethelric's heresy is of the second definition.

To reinforce that the order is not upholding its rule, i should add that one of "The Hundred"'s members today attacked and killed a member of my clan's who was AFK in our city.
Several precepts within their rule (http://www.lumensolis.com/showthread.php?t=561) were broken in this act.

Then again, I don't see why Aethelric can't just repent and be done with this babble.

[Siverous de'Medici]

I believe the main cause for the trial by arms was the pretty intense insults leveled at the Hundred and myself.

And, yes, Sivvy is clearly bored. Get an account so we can duel already.

I have class every damn day at 1, and they don't sell on the weekends.

[Cynewulf]

Lord Baenor approached me as Siverous' proxy, with quotes containing much the same argument as Siverous' above. Baenor expressed that he was loathe to admit it, but he saw some reason within the ranting.

To which:


That would be a persuasive argument, Lord Baenor, but the Rule of an Order is not a tenet of the Church proper. It is merely a prescription of how the monks within that order ideally should live and operate as an organization. The church approved the Rule as submitted to it, with modifications, finding its content to be a generally salutatory ideal to try to uphold, Church did not issue it as its own dogma.

When Siverous finds me where Aethelric has said the Auros does not exist, or that Auros was a usurper god, and that will be an example of heresy against a central belief of Auranism. There is no central Church dogma that hymns must be sung. Aethelric may be derelict in duty to his own Order, perhaps, but not heretical.

All of Siverous' rantings display a woeful ignorance of true church policy and the real definition of heresy, which does not extend to everyday rules running the administrative aspects of the Church. An Order is an organization that needs operational guidelines, and its rule is not a holy document of infallible scripture. It is insanity to engage in tirades to the contrary.

This is but mere frothy-mouthed rambling from the poor fallen priest. There needs be no contest of arms, when maddened irrational raving such as this fills up a holy Church.

Siverous, Grandmaster of the Order d'Argento, you yourself will stand trial for engaging in heresy,
for consorting with the heretic named Father Merrin,
for speaking ill against the head of our Church, King Manus,
and for being an agent of Malaut sent to corrupt and undermine the Church.

Prepare your defense. There is good evidence (http://www.e-crusaders.net/forum/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=104) that at least two of the above charges are true. I will undertake this Church inquest into your recent erratic behaviour personally, in view of your many contributions in the past and the high esteem that you once had earned.

[Honorius Dioctus]

Are you really suggesting we try the man who has done more for the Church than any of us "for being an agent of Malaut sent to corrupt and undermine the Church."? Siverous brought most of us into the Church he reached out to VVV and Kirdain and Wessex to get the Church started. How could you possibly accuse him of this?

As for consorting with Father Merrin, you may as well throw me into the fire for this one as well. Hell even King Manus has consorted with Father Merrin.

[Siverous de'Medici]

I suppose there's no harm in answering those charges anymore, I think Merrin is wise to me now.

As an agent of the King, I did repeatedly attempt to get close to Merrin, and his Order to befriend its membership and undermine the authority of its leader. I've certainly said far worse about His Majesty then what's in that thread.

In one instance, we even managed to convince Merrin that he had an underground network of spies that were working against him to promote Hyperion ideals. He kicked a member out of his clan for saying something along the lines of, "I don't think Hyperion is all that bad." In response, Merrin had him removed under the pretense that he was afraid his Order would be compromised because of the man's brother.

It wasn't until later that I managed to rile the old codger into revealing the real reason he kicked the member. I seem to have a knack for getting under his skin.

You may check the details with His Majesty. I have had my disagreements with the King, but we do agree when it comes to standards for the Church, and Kingdom. The plain and simple truth is that the Hundred aren't meeting those standards. Call it heresy, dereliction of duty, whatever. Something needs to change there.

Now, I have admited, and will continue to admit that I went about it the wrong way to begin with. If there is some punishment I have to face for that, so be it. Now that the Council is involved, it is up to them to resolve this matter.

You are a wise and intelligent man Cynewulf, and an excellent Priest. The Trial by Combat was pure genious. However, allowing things to continue down this path is more damaging to the Church in the long run then simply asking Aethlric to alter his Rule to one the Hundred will agree to obey.

[Cynewulf]

(OOC: As King Manus has said, when roleplay becomes silly and threatens the actual readiness and efficiency of our kingdom's forces in-game, it gets shutdown. Based on the current trend recently established, I would favor the whole Church being deactivated, if the original post is now considered a standard of RP.)



Are you really suggesting we try the man who has done more for the Church than any of us "for being an agent of Malaut sent to corrupt and undermine the Church."? Siverous brought most of us into the Church he reached out to VVV and Kirdain and Wessex to get the Church started. How could you possibly accuse him of this?

I am proposing exactly that. Nor would I even need to prevail upon the Council, since I am the Archbishop of Sol Invictus and fully capable of administering law and ruling within my jurisdiction. Theodoric didn't need the council to try Mauduin in his diocese, so why you presume that you are even a part of this decision, Lord Honorius?

Suspicions of heretical associations are clearly laid out, and he is a member of my jurisdiction, the Terra Regis, by his own choosing. Don't the duties of your own diocese call you away yet?

As for his contributions, I hardly would suffer a man to fly into the embrace of Malaut with his esteem intact, simply because he once had glimpsed the divine face of Auros. Father Merrin, too, set up the early Church only to have it scoured clean in his wake, when he had passed over into the Shadow.

If a learned father of the Church has begun insanely accusing others and even himself (http://lumensolis.com/showthread.php?p=19314) of heresy when any scholar or mere child would understand the absurdity, then we must examine exactly when the his corruption began. That Father Siverous has contributed greatly causes you to admire an open associate of Merrin and a poison-tongued whisperer against the Head of the Church; but for me, it causes alarm at what corruption he might have subtly implanted in the Church structure before being exposed.

[Siverous de'Medici]

The original post wasn't RP, and neither has any post since then been.

The Church never focused on heresy before, our definitions are not clearly defined. We have what we can find from the internet, and those definitions seemed to fit.

It is common knowledge that a Knight of the Church swears fealty to a Bishop, or temporal Lord, our standards say that they don't swear fealty to a secular Lord. I'm not sure what else to call it other then heresy.


Archbishop of Sol Invictus and fully capable of administering law and ruling within my jurisdiction.

But not fully capable of administering, or ruling the Ecumenical Council.

Is it any wonder the Bishops are all against you? You haven't done anything. You don't earn their respect by playing Darkfall with your old Order, and ignoring the administrative tasks which are brought before you. You aren't given their respect when the King declares you the Archbishop...how's that saying go - something about titles?

I've done everything I can to support you. I've given you documents to bring before them so that you can show them your leadership in the council and earn their respect. When they asked me what I thought of you, I told them you were probably the best choice out there. I got the Orders and diocese to think up a gift to give you. I offered to goffer around and gather votes for you on proposed legislation. I gave you the chance to enforce the decisions of the Council against your Order to show them you were their leader, and not a member of the Hundred...I waited a year, year and a half for an absentee Archbishop? Insulting you finally got you involved...amazing how that works.

I think I know how underappreciated my mother feels...I should give her a call.

Face it Cynewulf, you haven't been doing your job...and I don't think forcing the Church to respect you now is going to work out all that well. But I think we're all ready to let bygones be bygones if you're willing to put in the work. We can set new standards, give a realistic definition to heresy, maybe even give you the respect His Majesty thinks you deserve...if you're willing to earn it.

[Cynewulf]

I'm quite sick of this, Siverous. Your demands for "action" in the Church lately have consisted of sending emails to me asking that your brother Brando be excommunicated. Why should I take that seriously?


Despite my agreement with the Bishop of the Republic, the Doge has taken it upon himself to act within his own interests. Ignoring the rights of the Holy See, and the Church, he denies me, an ordained member of the Holy Church, the right to even defend my honor in a public forum.

These are slanderous lies, and I would respond to them if I could. He has blocked my attempts to do so on the Republic forums, and so I would ask your permission to do so in a thread on the Hyperion forums.

If it is your desire that I swollow this slander for the sake of the Kingdom I will. I burn with a desire for righteous vengeance, not only for myself, but for the Church as well. The Doge does not even respect the decisions of his own Bishop. The Clergy from the Republic can not be recognized as anything more then his play things, he assigns them new masters without even consulting the Church, as though it was his right to do so.

This is grounds for excommunication if ever there was one. He even ignores the rights of freedom to the clergy that his own proposed constitution, and the Carta Solis, guarentees. There was no trial, no charges brought against myself, against my transgression against the Republic that warrent taking away my Auros given right to speak publically in the defense of my honor.

Again, I will not speak of it further if you deem neccessary, but so long as the Clergy of the Republic, including his own Bishop, are treated thusly...I can not personally recognize any of them as members of this Church

Communications like the above formed my opinion, when I said that your behavior recently was aimed to drive a wedge somewhere in Hyperion for some cheap thrills. It is not a principled stand about RP in the Church, or else you would not have been pushing me to start something with a secular lord just a few weeks ago.

You clearly have been itching to start some drama, any drama, and I don't regret ignoring those demands for the Church to pursue Brando. Likewise, with Aethelric as the target, I think very little of them.



The original post wasn't RP, and neither has any post since then been. The Church never focused on heresy before, our definitions are not clearly defined. We have what we can find from the internet, and those definitions seemed to fit.

It wasn't RP? So then you thought Aethelric was a heretic IRL? "Father Aethelric is a heretic" is clearly stated in there, and apparently it's not RP.

If you don't know what heresy is and you've been roleplaying a founding father of a Church with medieval elements for a year...


It is common knowledge that a Knight of the Church swears fealty to a Bishop, or temporal Lord, our standards say that they don't swear fealty to a secular Lord. I'm not sure what else to call it other then heresy.


If I kill someone, even though the Decalogue tells me I shall not kill, I do not become a heretic--I become a sinner and a criminal.
If I say the Decalogue does not forbid killing, then I become a heretic.

Is this clear? Taking lands and titles from your brother would be a sin of avarice, and as it is against written Church law, also a crime. It's pretty obvious to anyone with any theological understanding.


Is it any wonder the Bishops are all against you? You haven't done anything. You don't earn their respect by playing Darkfall with your old Order, and ignoring the administrative tasks which are brought before you. You aren't given their respect when the King declares you the Archbishop...how's that saying go - something about titles?

The Bishops all against me? Why? Because as little has happened in a month and a half of my administration as also happened in a month and a half before that, when they were themselves the executive power? The Council did nothing before me, therefore they should love and accept me as one of their fellowship. :ok:

My only regret is not finding time to ordain Edric from Waleron. I'm quite sure the rest of the inactivity would have happened regardless.



I've done everything I can to support you. I've given you documents to bring before them so that you can show them your leadership in the council and earn their respect. When they asked me what I thought of you, I told them you were probably the best choice out there. I got the Orders and diocese to think up a gift to give you. I offered to goffer around and gather votes for you on proposed legislation. I gave you the chance to enforce the decisions of the Council against your Order to show them you were their leader, and not a member of the Hundred...I waited a year, year and a half for an absentee Archbishop? Insulting you finally got you involved...amazing how that works.

Gathering votes? Only Baenor and Honorius voted in the very thread to create your Order afresh as a TR guild. That was not enough for me to decently declare that a quorum had been reached and confirm the vote. You overestimate your abilities and your help, if you cannot muster a critical mass of votes for deciding the status of your own guild.

And of course I'm not about to depose Aethelric. Are you insane? I can no more depose Aethelric without the Hundred rising in protest than I could depose Baenor, the only other clergyman whose followers have enough numbers to matter. And whose numbers, I may add, also do not RP involvement in the Church at all. So is Baenor the Heretic next?



Face it Cynewulf, you haven't been doing your job...and I don't think forcing the Church to respect you now is going to work out all that well. But I think we're all ready to let bygones be bygones if you're willing to put in the work. We can set new standards, give a realistic definition to heresy, maybe even give you the respect His Majesty thinks you deserve...if you're willing to earn it.

So long as "we" does not actually include you, I say let's go for it.

[Valens Bellator]

You aren't given their respect when the King declares you the Archbishop...how's that saying go - something about titles?

"It is not titles that honor men, but men that honor titles."?

Anyway, it is true to some extent Cynewulf. How long ago was it now that I administered the priesthood test to Eldric and gave you his information that you might begin the ordination process? I've yet to see anything done about that! You still havn't set up your own ceremony in which we were going to present you with gifts and such. In fact, since you become Archbishop, the only thing our Church has done together was meet in vent once, and that had been planned prior to your arrival here!

The only person who has done anything for us in the past couple months is Sivvy. You need to begin filling your role! It's obvious you have the potential to be a great Archbishop, but you seem completely uninterested in the role. :p

[Cynewulf]

"It is not titles that honor men, but men that honor titles."?

Anyway, it is true to some extent Cynewulf. How long ago was it now that I administered the priesthood test to Eldric and gave you his information that you might begin the ordination process? I've yet to see anything done about that! You still havn't set up your own ceremony in which we were going to present you with gifts and such. In fact, since you become Archbishop, the only thing our Church has done together was meet in vent once, and that had been planned prior to your arrival here!

The only person who has done anything for us in the past couple months is Sivvy. You need to begin filling your role! It's obvious you have the potential to be a great Archbishop, but you seem completely uninterested in the role. :p

I agree that I have been too neglectful. Particularly I am sorry to have delayed Edric. It has given Siverous ammunition against me now, for sure. When I experienced DFO, I confess that I stopped trying to treat it as a RPG and began to accept it as a conquest PvP game.

[Siverous de'Medici]

I'm quite sick of this, Siverous. Your demands for "action" in the Church lately have consisted of sending emails to me asking that your brother Brando be excommunicated. Why should I take that seriously?

You shouldn't, I was angry, and reacted poorly. Anything would have been better then complete silence though. That's also not entirely true however...though I suppose that's besides the point.


Communications like the above formed my opinion, when I said that your behavior recently was aimed to drive a wedge somewhere in Hyperion for some cheap thrills. It is not a principled stand about RP in the Church, or else you would not have been pushing me to start something with a secular lord just a few weeks ago.

You clearly have been itching to start some drama, any drama, and I don't regret ignoring those demands for the Church to pursue Brando. Likewise, with Aethelric as the target, I think very little of them.

I have apologized and do apologize for taking things as far as I did with Aethelric, it was ridiculus. I didn't mean to cause drama, but it clearly deteriated into it...and I was clearly the cause.


It wasn't RP? So then you thought Aethelric was a heretic IRL? "Father Aethelric is a heretic" is clearly stated in there, and apparently it's not RP.

If you don't know what heresy is and you've been roleplaying a founding father of a Church with medieval elements for a year...

I'm still of the opinion that it is. I'm not sure why it's not. It would be great if you explained it to the Council because they obviously don't understand either.


If I kill someone, even though the Decalogue tells me I shall not kill, I do not become a heretic--I become a sinner and a criminal.
If I say the Decalogue does not forbid killing, then I become a heretic.

Is this clear? Taking lands and titles from your brother would be a sin of avarice, and as it is against written Church law, also a crime. It's pretty obvious to anyone with any theological understanding.

This is the information the Church needs you to be pumping at them. I clearly didn't know that, do you think anyone else does?


The Bishops all against me? Why? Because as little has happened in a month and a half of my administration as also happened in a month and a half before that, when they were themselves the executive power? The Council did nothing before me, therefore they should love and accept me as one of their fellowship. :ok:

My only regret is not finding time to ordain Edric from Waleron. I'm quite sure the rest of the inactivity would have happened regardless.

That's the point...the inactivity has always been the problem. I thought a leader could push the council into activity. I mean, this might be a circus, but at least the Church is doing something. Hopefully this assertiveness carries on as well.

The Church needs you to be the one who steps it up.


Gathering votes? Only Baenor and Honorius voted in the very thread to create your Order afresh as a TR guild. That was not enough for me to decently declare that a quorum had been reached and confirm the vote. You overestimate your abilities and your help, if you cannot muster a critical mass of votes for deciding the status of your own guild.

Apparently I do. I thought I had garnered the necessary votes.


And of course I'm not about to depose Aethelric. Are you insane? I can no more depose Aethelric without the Hundred rising in protest than I could depose Baenor, the only other clergyman whose followers have enough numbers to matter. And whose numbers, I may add, also do not RP involvement in the Church at all. So is Baenor the Heretic next?

Nobody wants to remove Aethelric as the head of the Hundred. We just wanted the Hundred to have a Rule they could, and would actually follow.


So long as "we" does not actually include you, I say let's go for it.

I understand...I've caused a lot of problems over the past month, and have offered no real value of anything to anyone.

It was not my intention to be such a pain in the ass, I thought I was trying to enforce the standards we had set forth for the Church, and Kingdom. Somehow I thought I was doing the right thing, but looking back on it...I'm not so sure.

Consider me self-exiled. I'm gonna go play DFO with my SoE buddies.